Recreating Section 26 (Ring Mod) Patches In Ni Massive

I've been recreating both the on your own and the lesson pack patches in Massive. (Thought it was in addition to, not instead of.) If the on your owns are not meant to be recreated in Massive, then all good.

If you're using the Massive Lesson Pack, there is a specific set of presets to recreate instead of the "On Your Own" patches. Do you see a "Massive Lesson Pack" folder of presets in Primer or Syntorial's standalone synth? These are recreatable in Massive.

Thanks Joe, appreciate the detailed response. Makes sense now.

I think some of this would be worth mentioning in the Massive ring mod lesson at least, considering that the task is to recreate the Primer patches, but that is not possible, due to Massive’s modulation oscillator being fixed to sine.

(In the main Syntorial lesson everything was fine and made sense, I only started getting confused when I was unable to recreate the patch in Massive, and started thinking about what is what exactly, why the oscillator roles seem to be reversed, which pitch do I need to change, which oscillator am I even hearing, etc…)

My mistake! I misspoke. You're right, in Primer, Osc 1 is the Modulator, and Osc 2 is the Carrier. And yes, in Massive, the Modulation Osc is the modulator, and the others are the carriers.

With Ring Mod, the signals are multiplied against each other, and you hear the result. So what matters is the relationship of waveform type and pitch difference. So to match sounds you could either:

Set Primer Osc 1 (Modulator) to Sine, set Osc 2 (Carrier) to Square, and set Osc 2 Semi to 30. Then in Massive, set Osc 1 (Carrier) to Square, and Osc 1 Pitch to 30. HOWEVER, this will give you a high-pitched metallic sound, and you'll lose the gritty low end from the patch we're trying to recreate. Soooo...

Set Primer Osc 1 (Modulator) back to square, set Osc 2 (Carrier) to Sine, and keep Osc 2 Semi to 30. Then in Massive, keep Osc 1 (Carrier) as Square, set Osc 1 Pitch to 0, and Modulation Osc Pitch to 30. And you'll again get a matched sound, but with that low grit. So why do these sounds match, even though the Modulator/Carrier relationships are the opposite between synths?

Because, as mentioned above, with Ring Modulation it's all about how the waveform type and pitch difference relate. So while the Modulator/Carriers are opposite of each other, what matches is: The Sine wave is 30 semitones above the Square wave. It doesn't matter which oscillator is labeled "modulator" and which is labeled "carrier". What matters is the waveform/pitch relationship.

Honestly, using Modulator/Carrier terminology in Ring Modulation is a bit misleading once you start breaking it down internally like this. But this terminology is widely used, so we use it too. I'm tempted to mention this in the course but am worried it will muddy the waters with complication...

Thanks Joe, that was it. After changing Primer's oscillator 2 to sine they now sound identical. However now I'm a bit confused about which oscillator does what, so I have some follow up questions if you don't mind...

The presets I'm using are:
Primer: oscillator 1 square, oscillator 2 sine, mix 2, semi 30
Massive: oscillator 1 square, modulation oscillator sine, RM 100%, modulation oscillator pitch +30

1. In the "26: Ring Mod" video you mention that oscillator 1 is the modulator, and oscillator 2 is the carrier, and that's why we set mix to 2. But in your comment above you said oscillator 2 is the modulator. Could you clarify this please?

2. In Massive, the bottom oscillator is explicitly called the "modulation oscillator", which I assume leaves me with oscillator 1 being the carrier. You also mention in the Massive video that oscillator 1 is the carrier. Is this correct?

3. I thought that changing the semi knob in Primer changes the pitch of oscillator 2 (which is either the carrier or the modulator, depending on your answer to question 1). In Massive, I need to change the pitch value next to the modulation oscillator. This again would suggest that oscillator 2 is the modulator in Primer, not the carrier. Could you clarify please?

4. If oscillator 2 is indeed the modulator in Primer, then how come we need to set the mix to 2? You mentioned in the video that the mix should be set to the carrier, because that's the one we want to hear. Is that not the case here? Does mix 2 mean "100% ring modulated oscillator 1", similar to the 100% RM knob in Massive?

Sorry about all the questions, just trying to wrap my head around all these things...

You won't be able to match that tone exactly, because Massive's Modulation Osc is set to Sine, whereas Syntorial's modulator oscillator (Osc 2) can be set to any waveform, and in this case, is set to square.

If you change Syntorial's Osc 2 to Sine, then you should be able to get a close match in Massive.